After LinkedIn News reported that the cyber industry in the UK remains overwhelmingly dominated by men, cyber experts flocked to weigh in on why. Two of these experts were Lorna Armitage and Dr Andrea Cullen who, via their company CAPSLOCK, shared the following video:

Panelle’s Megan Ioannides spoke to the founders of CAPSLOCK, a leading cyber security re-skilling boot camp, to further understand the gendered gap in engagement with cyber.

With over 30 years of combined experience under their belts, including within academia, private consultancy and of course CAPSLOCK, they shared their take-aways, experiences and understandings of why the cyber industry, particularly in the UK, continues to be dominated by men.

Why, firstly, do you think that the cyber industry continues to be dominated by men?

A: Historically certain roles were classified as ‘men's roles’ and whilst some industries have moved on significantly, this one hasn’t. There isn't any logical reason why it should still be male dominated, but it suits some people to keep it that way. I think that's definitely one of the reasons.

There’s a lot of unconscious bias around men employing other men and no matter whether you’re the most gifted cyber professional, if you're in a room with a man they will generally, automatically look to another man. So I think it's a bigger society thing.

L: Yeah, I'd agree with most of that. Largely I do think the key thing, that Andrea mentioned, is how it suits a lot of gatekeepers in the industry. A lot of the senior leaders are men and we've all, as humans, got that unconscious bias and want to be around people that we're comfortable with. Hence men tend to look towards and hire other men, whether they intend to or not.

Then comes the societal norm of the past, that women didn't work, they stayed at home and were the caregivers. I think that controls the narrative going forward because then cyber roles are geared towards men so women don’t necessarily relate to them and apply.

A: I think people’s attitudes are changing, but the percentages are not. You hear time and time again that a role has been advertised and whilst the hiring team ‘only want to hire the best people, it’s just that no women applied’.

L: And to me, that's such a lazy response. You're telling me that women just don’t like cyber? That's not the case. There's something wrong with the way that role is being advertised and perceived that means women don't connect with it and don't feel like it’s for them.

Before I ask you about the solutions to that, I want to ask what your experiences have been like as women in a male dominated cyber industry?

L: I’ve dealt with a lot of microaggressions throughout my career, definitely. You’ll  say something and five minutes later a man will repeat it and suddenly it’s the best idea in the world. And you sit there thinking I've just bloody said that. Being spoken over has been a common issue I’ve dealt with.

I also find that I have to work five times as hard and be five times as good as any man in the room to even gain the respect that they automatically get. When you address issues like that, you're always the one that's being ‘confrontational’. Even if somebody has, maybe, spoken over you 10 times, if you address that you're always seen as the one causing problems. So you've got to deal with a lot of that.

We actually did our own study and publicised it. When we first founded CAPSLOCK, we did so with a third co-founder who was a man and we started to notice that in meetings, whether that be with external suppliers or potential investors, they always addressed him. Bear in mind he didn’t have a background in cyber, it was us who were the experts and who designed the curriculum that we teach. So, we started a tally of the number of times each of our names was mentioned, across 18 meetings. In the results, Andrea’s was said 11 times, mine 16 and our male co-founder was addressed 117 times.

A: And even when we published those results we had somewhat of a mixed response. So many people were supportive and equally as appalled by the results. Others still vilified us because they deemed it ‘improper’ research and didn’t believe it. In fact, one man even claimed that we’d insinuated that our male co-founder was in charge by posting a photo of the three of us in which he was sat in the middle; this was where Jesus sat at the last supper. So yeah, it’s definitely had a mixed response to say the least.

(If you’d like to read the entire ‘Ignored in the Boardroom’ study, you can do so here)

So what do you think are some of the factors that dissuade women from entering the cyber industry?

L: Language definitely. We’ve still got quite a lot of military, war like language in cyber which doesn’t help. Also role models, there aren’t enough role models for women, who show them they can enter cyber. Young girls in school tend to quickly lose interest in tech subjects and we need to find out why that is. Is it because they don’t see anybody like themselves in these roles?

A: I think media representation also doesn’t help. There’s a whole perception that people in cyber sit in hoodies and are hackers who don’t wash. Hacking is a tiny part of what cyber security has to offer and these stereotypes make it seem less and less appealing to people.

L: There’s also a real perception that not everybody can do what we do, that it’s super difficult and you need to be super intelligent or ‘special’ to do it. Some within the industry continue to perpetuate this myth because it makes themselves feel special and suits their agenda. So, language, role models and media representation are some of the main factors.

So if you had to pinpoint some core steps to widening the demographic of the cyber industry, what would they be?

L: Demystifying it. In marketing, the media and the language we use. Without plugging ourselves too much, I think you do it via initiatives like CAPSLOCK. You spread the message that anybody can do this, no matter what background they’re from. All you need is passion, determination, problem solving ability, and the ability to work in a team. Those are the skills that are important, not whether you can use a specific tool or a computer in a certain way. The government definitely needs to do more around this as well.

A: When I think back to early school, STEM and The Arts are very separated. I hate the term STEM. Why are science, technology, engineering and maths all in one bucket and Humanities in another? Why is there such a distinct dichotomy? If you’re artistic or creative, it’s actually an amazing skill to have in a technology unit. The minute we divide these subjects, it puts people into boxes that tell them where they can or can’t succeed. It limits what people can do. So that’s something that definitely needs to change at all levels of education.

Above all then, what’s the main messages you want to share?

A: That we need role models at all levels. Every woman should not only look to others as role models but need value themselves as one too.

We need to address the impact of gendered language more generally and how it can exclude people from certain sector roles.

And finally, we don’t need to encourage women away from something else to get them into ‘STEM’ but instead need to make it known that creative strengths and passions are equally as valuable in industries like cyber.